Your Real Sign and Vedic Astrology: Avoid the Sidereal Zodiac Trap of Jyotish at All Costs
72Avoid the astrology trap of using the Sidereal zodiac exclusively (or practitioners who do) or risk vast inaccuracies.
You’ve always thought that you had a Sagittarius Sun sign, but then you’re confused when a friend shows you a “cooler” form of astrology, one which totally changes what you thought you knew about your basic natal chart. You think, “How can I have a Scorpio Sun?” You don’t.
Sidereal zodiac (the zodiac of constellations) advocates will tell you, “...but Sidereal is the ‘oldest astrology,’ it’s the basis for Hindu astrology!”
While it is the basis for Hindu astrology, functional Chaldean and Greek predate horoscopic Hindu/Vedic/Jyotish/Indian, and evidence shows that Hindu horoscopic astrology borrowed heavily from these cultures.
You’re not alone if you’ve fallen for a smooth-talking Internet marketer telling you that she’ll help you fix all your problems if you buy her products and services based on the Sidereal zodiac. Her getting testimonials from big, recognizable names (who happen to use the same publishers in many cases) means that she has a good P.R. machine, that’s all.
How to Escape This Trap
We recommend using the Tropical zodiac (and practitioners who do) instead as the primary zodiac. This is the zodiac of Western astrology and it’s what you’ll find at most non-Eastern astrology sites.
While we’re sure there exist talented astrologers in India who rely upon the Sidereal zodiac and have shaped their systems to be efficient in the real world, we have yet to encounter an American, European or other Western astrologer who uses the Sidereal zodiac exclusively and offers even consistently semi-acceptable accuracy rates.
If the practitioner who uses Sidereal is very psychic and, or has developed their own unique, reliable system using it, then perhaps they might be able to obtain consistently high accuracy. But our experience since the 1980s tells us that they don’t exist in America or anywhere else in the Western world.
Your “Real” Signs
It must be said that you won’t find your “real Ascendant/Rising sign” (or “real Sun sign,” or “real Moon sign,” etc.) by using the Sidereal zodiac.
Make no mistake: you won’t find out “…what sign you really are…” using the Sidereal zodiac (basis for Hindu/Vedic/Jyotish/Indian astrology), and it isn’t the “…true zodiac.” Don’t fall for this nonsense.
Sidereal Zodiac Origins
Usage of the Sidereal zodiac is from an era when practitioners had an inadequate understanding of the realities of our planet and solar system. It was already developed (in a very rough form) before the origins of horoscopic astrology.
The origins of the actual precise astrological horoscope (horoscopic astrology), which includes the Ascendant or Rising sign, etc. is traced back to Hellenistic Egypt (about 330 BC - 30 BC). Prior to this time (when the Hindus adopted horoscopic astrology), our findings show that Hindu astrology was essentially an ambiguous spiritual philosophy, without distinct means for explicit delineation and prediction.
The Hindus borrowing the functional horoscope, which includes the Ascendant/Rising sign, from other cultures is certainly acceptable, but using the Sidereal zodiac in conjunction with it results in some technical concerns, as outlined below.
The Sidereal Zodiac system is based on fixed stars, hence the problem. We attach importance to the fixed stars, but we don’t like how the Sidereal system links the degrees of the Ecliptic to them.
The True Ascendant
The true Ascendant (Rising sign), in our opinion, is where the Eastern horizon intercepts the Ecliptic. This is so in the Tropical zodiac system, but not the Sidereal. Using that system, due to the current 20+ degree difference between the zodiacs, you’ll likely have a different Ascendant, Sun sign, and Moon sign, among other differences.
Precession
Due to precession, there exists the current 20+ degree discrepancy between the Tropical and Sidereal zodiacs, but it’s only a concern with transits and other superficial timing indicators. The natal calculations are absolutely valid under Tropical, in our opinion. Anyway, you can always adjust Tropical zodiac transit charts, lunar return charts, solar return charts and other methods that are altered due to precession.
Complicated Forms of Astrology
Furthermore, while the techniques of Hindu, or Vedic astrology are said by some proponents to be “more complicated” than those of modern Western astrology, they aren’t more complicated in the least than the collective methods of ancient astrology, including those of Chaldean, Greek, Egyptian, Arabic, and others.
Real Astrology Symbolizes Personal Fate
The more deeply a practitioner objectively explores the science of astrology, instead of trying to find ways to manipulate life to one’s desire (e.g., “getting astrologically unstuck and finding and keeping the love of your life”), what is really discovered is that the comprehensive charts symbolize immutable fate—predestination. Although you can’t turn your charts into a magic genie who will grant all of your wishes, self- understanding, thus acceptance is obtainable.
We accept Sidereal zodiac astrology as an alternative, yet we believe the Tropical zodiac is optimum for precision. We recommend you seek out astrologers who are well-versed in the Topical zodiac, which is the basis for Western astrology. Also, due to proven, more reliable methods, you’re better off hiring astrologers who favor ancient rather than modern astrology, as we’ve detailed in many articles.
Copyright © 2009 Scott Petullo, Stephen Petullo
CommentsLoading...
Seneca,
Thanks for your feedback.
It appears that you misread the paragraph. We don't deny that there are many people in the U.S. who use Sidereal. Here's the paragraph again:
"While we’re sure there exist talented astrologers in India who rely upon the Sidereal zodiac and have shaped their systems to be efficient in the real world, we have yet to encounter an American, European or other Western astrologer who uses the Sidereal zodiac exclusively and offers even consistently semi-acceptable accuracy rates."
Sincerely,
Scott Petullo
"A STEP TOWARDS MODERN ASTROLOGY"
THIS IS A VERY GOOD ARTICLE. HERE IT IS TO MENTION THAT I AM A RESEARCHER IN ASTROLOGY, WHERE I HAVE DEVLOPED & INTRODUCED A NEW CONCEPT THAT PLANETS OF OUR SOLAR SYSTEM INFLUENCE OUR NATURE THROUGH LIFE CENTER POINT. I HAVE TAKEN THE GEOMETRIC METHOD OF EXPLANATION WITH REFERENCE TO MODERN ASTRONOMICAL DATA. KINDLY READ THE ARTICLE THAT PUBLISHED IN HUBPAGES.COM -WHAT IS NEW IN ASTROLOGY OR SCIENTIFIC ASTROLOGY WITH THE NEW CONCEPT. REQUESTED TO ENDORSE YOUR COMMENTS.
WITH REGARDS
SIMHACHALO PADHY (INDIA)
Thanks for your feedback, Simhachalo.
Scott
i believe people should choose whichever one they think matches their personality. for me I have always been obsessed w astrology and tropical only explained one tiny tiny aspect of my personality. when i read the sidereal version everything was exactly how i am. some ppl may be down for tropical, but it is a math only based system, instead of physical reality the earth wobbles on its axis and everything moves, not everything can stay in the same spot for thousands and thousands of years. but this works for me, i respect ppls opinions
Thanks for your feedback, Chelsey.
I encourage you to explore both systems in relation to comprehensive charting, beyond Sun signs, Ascendants, and other basics.
Regarding your comment about Tropical being "...math only based system, instead of physical reality the earth wobbles on its axis and everything moves...", both systems are based on mathematics, and the physical reality of precession is acknowledged in using the Tropical zodiac.
Please see this blog post for more information:
http://scottpetullo.com/blog/2011/01/your-real-sig
Scott
As of what chelsay above wrote about sidereal zodiac- as of my own, my tropical sign is a Sagittarius with a Scorpio rising. I'm so FAR from a Sagittarius as I can ever get. Nothing of the sign fits me at all.
If using the sidereal, I'm a Scorpio and everything written is just ME. So I stick to that.
Thanks for offering your opinion, Neena.
The problem with focusing on only one or even a handful of indicators, such as a Sun sign, is low accuracy rates (related to outlining personality, or prediction).
You aren't one single sign, such as "a Scorpio" or "a Sagittarius" (any more than you are a finger or an eye), you are a collection of signs, planets and other heavenly bodies, and your unique configurations include key planets or other bodies that are more potent than others.
Additionally, self-analysis is notoriously subjective. Someone might actually believe they have "good leadership ability," yet in reality they don't.
Related articles:
http://scottpetullo.com/blog/2011/05/astrology-acc
http://scottpetullo.com/blog/2011/01/your-real-sig
http://scottpetullo.com/blog/2009/12/astrology-num
Scott
So my being born Dec 10 1974 at 0244 AM eastern USA makes me a?
Neena,
Although you didn't offer your location of birth, which is necessary to calculate the Ascendant/Rising sign, based on the data you supplied, you have Mercury, Venus, Sun, and Neptune in Sagittarius.
You also have Moon, Mars, and Uranus in Scorpio. Based on the limited number of factors I've listed, you have a good amount of Sagittarius and Scorpio energy. This is using the Tropical zodiac, which I believe is more accurate.
If you want to narrow it down, I advise focusing on a heavenly body, not a sign. For example, it may be that Mars is the strongest planet in your charts. But to calculate that, I'd have to have all your birth data, including the exact location. Note: Ascendant/Rising sign ruler is not automatically the "chart ruler." That's a modern astrology error to be avoided. It may be, yet it may not be, depending on many factors.
Scott
Ok, birth location is Pittsburgh, PA.
Longitude: 079.59 W
Latitude: 040.26 N
Neena,
Moon, Jupiter, then Mars, in that order. Those heavenly bodies dominate in your comprehensive charts. By the way your Ascendant/Rising is Libra at about 19 degrees (using Tropical zodiac).
Scott
Uhm..Jupiter? :-o
I took this test somewhere and ended up with what seems like Jupiter in Pisces.. Uh.. help?
Your natal Jupiter is in the sign of Pisces. Jupiter is dignified (strengthened) in the sign of Pisces. Your natal Jupiter is also enhanced in other ways, making it one of the most powerful planets in your comprehensive charts. I recommend studying Jupiter and the other two heavenly bodies I mentioned above in connection with your charts to find out more.
Scott
the sidereal zodiac fits me better and its not a trap
idk why but i never had the characteristics of capricorn im more of a saggitarius
and in vedic they depend on the moon sign for your true nature not just the sun
Thanks for offering your comment, raze.
The problem with focusing on only one, two, or even a handful of indicators, such as a Sun sign (or Sun sign and Moon sign as you suggest), is low accuracy rates related to outlining personality and prediction.
You aren't one single sign, such as "a Capricorn" or "a Sagittarius" (any more than you are a toe or a finger), you are a collection of signs, planets and other heavenly bodies, and your unique configurations include key planets or other bodies that are more potent than others.
Therefore, a person who has not delved into comprehensive charting wouldn't know if the Sidereal truly "fits" them more than the Tropical zodiac.
Additionally, self-analysis is notoriously subjective. Someone might actually believe they are "flexible," yet in reality they aren't, for example. When push comes to shove, the authentic personality emerges, which frequently differs from the persona.
Scott
Related articles:
http://scottpetullo.com/blog/2011/05/astrology-acc
Hi Scott,
I've been interested in astrology for 20 years but only stumbled on sidereal astrology a couple of months ago. I was totally dismayed at first as all the assumptions I held about myself had to be re-evaluated. My birth date is February 22 (London - UK) and my tropical and sideral charts are radically different. My tropical chart has a pisces stellium (sun, mercury, venus,saturn - the last two conjunct), jupiter in cancer,mars and neptune in scorpio, with the moon in leo. Using the tropical system I lack air signs. Using the sidereal I have Sun and mercury in aquarius,venus and saturn in pisces, with the moon and jupiter conjunct in cancer - and I lack any earth signs! Looking at my chart in context (not just the luminaries) the sidereal chart is a better portrayal of my personality. I have a taurus ascendent using the tropical system. Using the sidereal system my moon-jupiter conjuction is in the 4th house (whole-sign house system) due to my aries ascendant.
I don't subscribe to the view that you can have two different and equally correct systems. I've observed my partner of 15 years and two daughters and the zodiac archetypes are spot on.
I also suspect that tropical astrologers are able to make 'passable' analysis of their clients my way of compensation. By this I mean the relationship (aspect) between the luminaries often stays the regardless of whether the tropical or sidereal system is used. E.g the tension between sun-pisces and moon-leo is similar to the tension between sun-aquarius and moon-cancer. In another scenario a pisces-aries sun-moon type becomes an aries-taurus. The waters a further muddled if venus and mercury are in adjacent signs.
Much to my chagrin I have a sideral mars in libra - its my partner who has mars in scorpio!
Nacer67,
Thanks for offering your opinion.
Let's consider the natal astrological considerations you list.
Your basic natal chart, Tropical zodiac:
Stellium (based on Ptolemaic aspects, which are surface indicators); the signs of 4 random heavenly bodies; no air signs (and how many air signs otherwise, considering how many heavenly bodies overall?); Taurus Ascendant.
Your basic natal chart, Sidereal zodiac:
the signs of 6 random heavenly bodies, two of the listed heavenly bodies in conjunction; no earth signs (and how many earth signs otherwise, considering how many heavenly bodies overall?); Aries Ascendant.
Then you conclude that "the sidereal chart is the better portrayal of my personality."
There are two key problems with your conclusion:
1. Your focus is based on a handful of trivial indicators.
2. Subjective analysis (analyzing yourself) is futile, especially when you completely lack an adequate system of analysis.
Authentic astrology, based on ancient tradition (not modern psycho-babble), includes 100s of factors. It's a language as challenging as any other to learn.
The term "archetype" is commonly tossed around in superficial/modern astrology--there is no simple archetype system. You must thoroughly delineate a person's character/personal fate with tried and true systems and if you don't and take the easy route, you're only going to end up with very low accuracy rates.
You also say,
"I also suspect that tropical astrologers are able to make 'passable' analysis of their clients my way of compensation. By this I mean the relationship (aspect) between the luminaries often stays the regardless of whether the tropical or sidereal system is used."
Your mistake is erroneously putting too much emphasis on Ptolemaic aspects. Again, they are trivial.
When you experiment with both systems, Tropical and Sidereal, thoroughly, and compare the findings to handwriting analysis (which I do), you clearly see that Sidereal is off the mark--it's an outdated system.
The Sidereal system further loses credibility when you compare the predictive results with comprehensive numerology and Tropical zodiac based astrology. It's laughable, really.
Also, the reference to "tension between" different Sun-Moon combinations would only apply to astrologers who dabble in trivialities since the serious practitioner would easily see beyond it.
One of the most glaringly obvious problems with the Sidereal zodiac is how the Hindus applied it to the functional horoscope (Hindus did not invent the Horoscope), which includes the Ascendant/Rising sign.
As I outline in the article above, it yields some major errors. Sidereal enthusiasts refuse to acknowledge this (and other Sidereal folly), and it only makes things worse, perpetuating misinformation.
More information about why the Sidereal zodiac will only give you erroneous results:
Hi Scott,
Thanks for your response. I am interested to know what the fundamental failings of sidereal astrology are vis-a-vis tropical astrology. I mentioned the key difference between my tropical and sidereal charts mainly as a light hearted introduction to the radical differences that can occur for the majority of people shifting from one system to another. For me is dramatic as I have the moon in leo, uranus and pluto in virgo, a taurus ascendant, with all the remaining planets in water signs using the tropical system.
I'm well aware of the pitfalls of self-analysis but basically want an astrological system that works. Astrological influences are rarely black and white and influences can be subtle. Hence if in doubt all I do is observe people and do my best to come to an impartial judgement on which system 'seems' to give the best character/personality portrayal based on their time of birth and natal chart. So far I've not seen a single instance where the sidereal is less accurate than the tropical. But then off course I could just be unfortunate enough to have numerous acquaintances for which a sidereal chart appears to offer greater insight and accuracy.
If I was a professional astrologer I would test empirically by casting both a sidereal and a tropical chart for my clients to gauge what system is best. If the sidereal system is the more accurate it then raises fundamental issues for western astrology E.g is neptune in pisces or in aquarius? is mars currently retrograde in leo or virgo.
I guess given the vested interests, websites, and charts paid for online it would suit most for the tropical approach to be correct. I'm happy for this to be the case - but I want to be convinced by empirical evidence and observations that support this thesis.
Kind regards,
Nacer67
Nacer67,
Thanks for your feedback.
The answer to your question/inquiry is above, and within the linked pages I offered, but I'll address it again.
The key problem with Sidereal (and therefore any system, such as Hindu that is based on it) is that it is a distorted form of horoscopic astrology.
Horoscopic astrology, which originated in Hellenistic Egypt (about 330 BC - 30 BC), includes the Ascendant (Rising sign), 7th house cusp, MC, Nadir, the other eight house cusps, the 12 houses, etc.
The true Ascendant, which is the basis of the horoscope, is where the Eastern horizon intercepts the Ecliptic. This is so in the Tropical zodiac system, but not the Sidereal.
The Sidereal system is based on fixed stars. I respect and value fixed stars by themselves, but you can't expect accuracy if the degrees of the Ecliptic are liked to fixed stars. It yields an approximate 20 degree difference so the person may have a different (and erroneous) Sun sign, Ascendant, Moon sign, etc.
To put it another way, you can't just slap a square (Sidereal system) into a circle slot (horoscopic astrology) and expect it to fit/be functional.
You say you want a system that works. I suggest using the Tropical zodiac as your primary system, and that your focus should mainly ignore modern astrology and instead use mostly ancient methodologies (500 BC -- 1700s).
Scott
"...but you can't expect accuracy if the degrees of the Ecliptic are *linked* to fixed stars..."
Hi Scott,
As you’ve noted the ecliptic is determined differently in the tropical and sidereal systems. You seem to be implying that the use of fixed stars by sidereal astrology is intrinsically erroneous.
Interestingly Wikipedia puts it thus ‘…classical tropical astrology is based on the orientation of the Earth relative to the Sun and planets of the solar system, sidereal astrology deals with the position of the Earth relative to both of these as well as the stars of the celestial sphere. The actual positions of certain fixed stars as well as their constellations is an additional consideration in the horoscope.’
I think there are still further truths to be discovered in astrology but intuitively and conceptually I can't see anything wrong with the sidereal basis for setting the ecliptic especially from the perspective of a celestial sphere with earth at its centre. (Please feel free to correct me - I currently experiencing a neptune conjunct sun transit and maybe mistaking insight for delusion!)
I guess the appeal with the tropical system is that it does give certainty based around calendar dates. But certainty doesn't equal accuracy and from my experience the sidereal approach is still proving more insightfull.
Regards,
Nacer67
Nacer67,
Thanks for offering your viewpoint.
You mention a Sun/Neptune transit. It will save you a lot of time to realize that such a phenomenon is so trivial compared to the comprehensive charts' contents; it's only really useful for fine-tuning. I recommend that you finally let go of excessive emphasis on Ptolemaic aspects. It's like ignoring all the other components of a healthful lifestyle (exercise, diet, sunshine, good sleep), and only applying loads of (natural) make-up so you look half-way decent.
The issue comes down to this: Sidereal zodiac based astrology (i.e., Hindu, etc.) existed BEFORE horoscopic astrology.
In other words, original Sidereal based astrology did NOT include an Ascendant/Rising sign, MC, Nadir, house divisions, etc.
If you insist on relying primarily on Sidereal based zodiac astrology, I urge you to use it WITHOUT horoscopic astrology.
After horoscopic astrology was introduced in Hellenistic Egypt (about 330 BC - 30 BC), the Hindus and others who used Sidereal incorporated it into their systems (i.e., attempted to fit a square into a round hole--doesn't work), which results in an erroneous Ascendant by an average of 20-some degrees. It also skews the rest of the horoscopic details.
Thus, your "true Ascendant" is NOT the Ascendant found through Sidereal, and your "true" Sun sign is NOT the Sun sign found through Sidereal astrology.
Let me also say clearly, as I've said before in our columns that I am absolutely sure that there are very talented and accurate astrologers IN INDIA who use Sidereal zodiac based astrology. Although they may offer you an erroneous/out of date Ascendant/Rising sign, Sun sign, etc., they still offer fantastic accuracy in personality analysis and prediction because they have learned to use their unique system to offer consistently accurate real-world results, such as when he or she will fall in love, when he or she will be at a peak point in their career, the level of wealth he or she will attain, and so on.
The problem is when you have the Western/American HUCKSTER Internet marketers who rip-off the Hindu/Sidereal zodiac system, use a very superficial form of it, and tell all their e-mail list subscribers that they can find their "real Ascendant," "real Sun sign," etc. and the "love of their life," for example, if they will just purchase the huckster's products/services.
She sure sounds convincing, with her heart-felt talks and stories about her own (fabricated) love life (by the way, word on the street is that her love is cheating on her), yet she's just like all the other American/Western New Age jokers who steal the sacred Hindu systems with their snake-oil salesman/woman ways.
Again, my fellow professionals in INDIA, lots of them, know what they are doing with forecasting and prediction because they have devoted themselves to the science and have spent many years developing their trade.
If you want to offer consistently high accuracy in prediction and personalty analysis you must learn the languages of astrology and numerology. They really are as challenging to learn as any other language, but once you are proficient, the rewards are infinite.
I also recommend that you use multiple forms of analysis. In my systems of analysis I include ancient astrology and numerology, modern astrology and numerology, and handwriting analysis. Multiple indicators in the various systems lining up showing the same circumstance/event/personality trait matching real life concerns/situations allow me to rule out which modes/calculations/patterns, etc. aren't consistently functional, and rely on those that do work time and time again.
Scott
Seneca 21 months ago
The ignorance of users of the Sidereal Zodiac is astonishing. It is easy to use the same techniques but applied to the Tropical Zodiac and see better results - empirical. Having experienced that it is more accurate, how can one stay attached to the S.Z. except through fear of criticism ?
However, there ARE many people in the United States who are using the S.Z.. That was an absurd statement, and for some would render anything else written in the article to be false, especially those in opposition to your belief.